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هل العدد يقول من ليس علينا فهو معنا ام من ليس عليكم فهو معكم ؟ لوقا 9: 50



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الشبهة



يوجد اختلاف في بعض النسخ في ترجمة لوقا 9: 50 فبعضها يقول من ليس علينا فهو معنا وبعضها يقول من ليس عليكم فهو معكم فايهما الصحيح ؟



الرد



ندرس العدد معا بادلة خارجية وداخلية لنعرف اي قراءه هي الصحيحة

الادلة الخارجية

انجيل لوقا 9: 50

9: 50 فقال له يسوع لا تمنعوه لان من ليس علينا فهو معنا



التراجم المختلفة

اولا التي كتبت معنا

Luk 9:50


(ALT) And Jesus said to him, "Stop preventing [or, forbidding] [him], for who[ever] is not against us is for us."


(ACV) But Jesus said to him, Do not forbid, for he who is not against us is for us.


(AKJ) And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(ALTNT) And Jesus said to him, "Stop preventing [or, forbidding] [him], for who[ever] is not against us is for us."


(VW) But Jesus said to him, Do not forbid him, for whoever is not against us is for us.


(Bishops) And Iesus sayde vnto hym, Forbyd ye [hym] not: For he that is not against vs, is with vs.


(Mace) but Jesus said to him, don't oppose it: for he that is not against us, is for us.


(EMTV) But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is for us."


(Etheridge) Jeshu saith to them, Forbid him not; for he who is not against us, he is for us.


(EVID) And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(Geneva) Then Iesus saide vnto him, Forbid ye him not: for he that is not against vs, is with vs.


(GLB) Und Jesus sprach zu ihm: Wehret ihm nicht; denn wer nicht wider uns ist, der ist für uns.


(GDBY_NT) And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not; for whosoever is not against us is on our side.


(HNV) Yeshua said to him, "Don't forbid him, for he who is not against us is for us."


(IAV NC) And Yehowshua said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(IAV) And Yehowshua said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(ISRAV) And Yehowshua said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(JST) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid not any; for he who is not against us is for us.


(JOSMTH) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid not any; for he who is not against us is for us.


(KJ2000) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(KJVCNT) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(KJCNT) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(KJV-Clar) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(KJV-1611) And Iesus said vnto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against vs, is for vs.


(KJV21) And Jesus said unto him, "Forbid him not; for he that is not against us, is for us."


(KJVA) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(LitNT) AND SAID TO HIM JESUS, FORBID NOT; FOR WHOSOEVER NOT IS AGAINST US, FOR US IS.


(LITV) And Jesus said to them, Do not forbid, for whoever is not against us is for us.


(LONT) Jesus answered, Forbid not such; for whosoever is not against us, is for us.


(MKJV) And Jesus said to him, Do not prevent him, for he who is not against us is for us.


(NKJV) But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us[c] is on our[d] side.”


(NLV) Jesus said to him, 'Do not stop him. He who is not against us is for us.'


(NRSV) But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him; for whoever is not against you is for you."


(RNKJV) And Yeshua said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


(RSVA) But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you."


(RYLT-NT) and Jesus said unto him, 'Forbid not, for he who is not against us, is for us.'


(TMB) And Jesus said unto him, "Forbid him not; for he that is not against us, is for us."


(Tyndale) And Iesus sayde vnto him: forbyd ye him not. For he that is not agaynst vs is wt vs.


(Webster) And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us, is for us.


(WORNT) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not; for he, that is not against us, is for us.


(Wycliffe) And Jhesus seide to hym, Nyle ye forbede, for he that is not ayens vs, is for vs.


(WycliffeNT) And Jhesus seide to hym, Nyle ye forbede, for he that is not ayens vs, is for vs.


(YLT) and Jesus said unto him, `Forbid not, for he who is not against us, is for us.'

( 44 )

التراجم التي كتبت معكم


(ASV) But Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you.


(BBE) But Jesus said to him, Let him do it, for he who is not against you is for you.


(CEV) "Don't stop him!" Jesus said. "Anyone who isn't against you is for you."


(Darby) And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not, for he that is not against you is for you.


(DRB) And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you.


(ESV) But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you."


(ERV) Jesus said to him, "Don't stop him. Whoever is not against you is for you."


(GNB) "Do not try to stop him," Jesus said to him and to the other disciples, "because whoever is not against you is for you."


(GW) Jesus said to him, "Don't stop him! Whoever isn't against you is for you."


(ISV) Jesus said to him, "Don't stop him! For whoever is not against you is for you."


(NIRV) "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "Anyone who is not against you is for you."


(NIV) Do not stop him, Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."


(RV) But Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you.


(WNT) "Do not forbid him," said Jesus, "for he who is not against you is on your side."

( 13)

ونري ان اغلبية التراجم الانجليزية قديمة وجديده تقليدية واغلبية وبعض النقدية قدمت كلمة علينا ومعنا



النسخ اليوناني

και ειπεν προς αυτον ο ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ ημων υπερ ημων εστιν
kai eipen pros auton o iēsous mē kōluete os gar ouk estin kath ēmōn uper ēmōn estin

(ABP-G+) καιG2532 ειπεG2036 προςG4314 αυτονG1473 οG3588 ΙησουςG* μη κωλυετεG3361 G2967 ος γαρG3739 G1063 ουκ εστιG3756 G1510.2.3 καθ΄G2596 ημωνG1473 υπερG5228 ημωνG1473 εστινG1510.2.3



ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:50 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
................................................................................
καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτὸν ὁ Ἰησοῦς Μὴ κωλύετε· ὃς γὰρ οὐκ ἔστιν καθ' ἡμῶν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐστιν


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:50 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
................................................................................
και ειπεν προς αυτον ο ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ ημων υπερ ημων εστιν


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:50 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
................................................................................
και ειπεν προς αυτον ο ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ ημων υπερ ημων εστιν
................................................................................
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:50 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
................................................................................
και ειπεν προς αυτον ο ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ ημων υπερ ημων εστιν


(GNT-V) TSBκαι ειπεν Aδε προς αυτον ο ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ Aυμων TSBημων υπερ Aυμων TSBημων εστιν


(IGNT+) καιG2532 AND ειπενG2036 [G5627] SAID προςG4314 TO αυτονG846 οG3588 HIM ιησουςG2424 μηG3361 JESUS, κωλυετεG2967 [G5720] FORBID NOT; οςG3739 γαρG1063 FOR WHOSOEVER ουκG3756 NOT εστινG2076 [G5748] IS καθG2596 AGAINST ημωνG2257 US, υπερG5228 FOR ημωνG2257 US εστινG2076 [G5748] IS.


(G-NT-TR (Steph)+) και And 2532 CONJ ειπεν said 2036 V-2AAI-3S προς unto 4314 PREP αυτον him 846 P-ASM ο 3588 T-NSM ιησους Jesus 2424 N-NSM μη not 3361 PRT-N κωλυετε Forbid, 2967 V-PAM-2P ος he 3739 R-NSM γαρ for 1063 CONJ ουκ not 3756 PRT-N εστιν that is 2076 V-PXI-3S καθ against 2596 PREP ημων us 2257 P-1GP υπερ for 5228 PREP ημων us 2257 P-1GP εστιν is. 2076 V-PXI-3S


(SNT) και ειπεν προς αυτον ο ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ ημων υπερ ημων εστιν


التي كتبت انتم يومون


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:50 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort
................................................................................
ειπεν δε προς αυτον ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ υμων υπερ υμων εστιν

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:50 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed.
................................................................................
ειπεν δε προς αυτον ιησους μη κωλυετε ος γαρ ουκ εστιν καθ υμων υπερ υμων εστιν


ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:50 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
................................................................................
καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτὸν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Μὴ κωλύετε· οὐ γάρ ἔστι καθ’ ὑμῶν· ὃς γὰρ οὐκ ἔστι καθ’ ὑμῶν, ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐστιν.


ونري ان التقليديه والاغلبيه كتبت معنا



المخطوطات عدة مخطوطات يونانية كتبت معكم منها الفاتيكانية والافرايمية وبيزا وبعض مخطوطات الخط الصغير مع الفلجاتا والسريانية

ولكن مخطوطه مهمة في هذا العد يجب ان ندرسها وهي السينائية

وصورتها

وصورة العدد

ونري ان الكلمه الثانية تغيرت من ايمون اي نحن الي يومون اي انتم

فحرف الايتا القديم الباهت ( يشبه حرف الاتش كابيتال ) كتب فوقه حرف يوبسلون ( يشبه حرف الواي كابيتال )

والكلمه الاولي

ونري ان حرف الايتا كتب فوق ويوجد في خلفية حرف يوبسلون حرف غير ظاهر شبه محي تماما فهي قد يكون الناسخ كتي الايتا ومحاها وكتب يبوسلون ثم وضع الايتا فوقها

فالناسخ هنا كتب العدد كما نعرفه التقليدي ولكن غالبا محي الحرف بعدها وكتب انتم بدل نحن



اما الفاتيكانية

صورتها



والعدد

ووضعت علامه نقديه وهي النقتطين

وصورة المخطوطه المنقوله منها



فهي كتبت فعلا انتم ولكن وضعت علامه نقدية



المخطوطات التي تشهد للنص التقليدي

ابدا بمخطوطة جائت شهادتها في المنتصف ( من ليس عليكم فهو معنا )

الاسكندرية

من القرن الخامس وصورتها

وصورة العدد

ومخطوطه دلتا فعلت نفس الامر واكسي

مخطوطه ثيتا قلبت الكلمتين ( من ليس علينا فهو معكم )

والتي تشهد للقراءه التقليديه

مجموعة مخطوطات

f1 f13

مجموعة المخطوطات البيزنطيه وهي لهذا العدد يقرب من الالف مخطوطة

Byz

وايضا

157 579



الترجمات

الترجمه الاشورية

وتعود الي سنة 165 م تقريبا

والعدد

وترجمته لجون ويزلي

9:50 Jeshu saith to them, Forbid him not; for he who is not against us, he is for us.

وهي شهاده قديمه جدا للقراءه التقليدية



يوجد مخطوطه كتبت شيئ مختلف وهي البرديه 45 ( فهو ليس ضدكم ولا معكم )

فالادله الخارجيه تنوعت بين مؤيد ومعارض وبين من قدم قراءه وسط بين الاثنين ولكن عندنا ادله قديمه علي وجود قراءت من ليس علينا فهو معنا من القرن الثاني الميلادي



اقوال الاباء

لايوجد اقتباسات كثيره من هذا العدد ولكن عندنا بعض الشهادات مثل

القديس اغسطينوس

Lord does say, "Forbid him not:  for he that is not against us is for us."21902190     Luke ix. 49, 50.  

ويكررها مره اخري

"Forbid him not:  for he that is not against us is for us. 



الادله الداخليه



الحقيقه كلام الرب يسوع المسيح كرر مرقس الرسول في

انجيل مرقس 9

9: 40 لان من ليس علينا فهو معنا

اذا هذا هو نص كلام الرب الذي نقله لنا مرقس البشير ولوقا البشير

وايضا الرب يسوع كرر كلامه مره اخري في

انجيل لوقا 11

11: 23 من ليس معي فهو علي و من لا يجمع معي فهو يفرق

لان الخدمه هي خدمة المسيح ونحن اعضاء جسده الذي هو الراس فيتكلم بالمفرد او بالجمع ولكن لا يفصلنا عنه بقوله معكم وعليكم

مع ملاحظة ان الرب يتكلم

انجيل لوقا 9

9: 49 فاجاب يوحنا و قال يا معلم راينا واحدا يخرج الشياطين باسمك فمنعناه لانه ليس يتبع معنا

9: 50 فقال له يسوع لا تمنعوه لان من ليس علينا فهو معنا

سياق الكلام يقدم ضمير نحن فاجابة المسيح بنفس الضمير هي اقرب الي الصحه

مع ملاحظة ان الخلط بين الكلمتين اليونانيتين

نحن

ημων

انتم

υμων

هو معتاد ولهذا نجد الاختلاف في عدة قراءات وليس قراءتين فقط

ولوقا البشير يكلم اليونان عن المسيح الذبيح فادي البشريه والمسيح هو يمثل البشريه ومعهم ولهذا هو دائما يتكلم بصيغة ان المسيح مع التلاميذ مجموعة واحده ولا يفرق بينهم لانه هو راس الكنيسه وبقية المؤمنين جسده ولهذا فتعبير معنا مناسب اكثر للفكر اللاهوتي للوقا الحبيب

وبناء علي قاعدة

The reading which best fits the context or the author's theology( and ideology ) is best.

القراءه التي تناسب الفكر اللاهوتي للكاتب هي الافضل

فهذا يؤكد اكثر ان القراءه التقليديه هي الاصح

واكتفي بهذا القدر



والمجد لله دائما