الرجوع إلى لائحة المقالات الرجوع إلى هل العدد الذي يقول كما فعل ايليا ايضا محرف
لو 9: 54هل العدد الذي يقول كما فعل ايليا ايضا محرف ؟ لوقا 9: 54
Holy_bible_1
الشبهة
يقول البعض ان العدد الموجود في لوقا 9: 54 " فَلَمَّا رَأَى ذَلِكَ تِلْمِيذَاهُ يَعْقُوبُ وَيُوحَنَّا قَالاَ: «يَا رَبُّ أَتُرِيدُ أَنْ نَقُولَ أَنْ تَنْزِلَ نَارٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَتُفْنِيَهُمْ كَمَا فَعَلَ إِيلِيَّا أَيْضاً؟». " محرف لان جملة كما فعل ايليا ايضا غير موجودة في بقية التراجم العربي
الرد
لنتاكد من اي قراءه هي الصحيحة ندرس الادلة الخارجية والداخلية
وفي الادلة الخارجية ندرس التراجم المختلفة والنصوص اليوناني والمخطوطات والترجمات القديمة لنري ليهم اصلي
التراجم المختلفة
التراجم العربية
التي كتبت المقطع
الفانديك
54 فَلَمَّا رَأَى ذَلِكَ تِلْمِيذَاهُ يَعْقُوبُ وَيُوحَنَّا قَالاَ: «يَا رَبُّ أَتُرِيدُ أَنْ نَقُولَ أَنْ تَنْزِلَ نَارٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَتُفْنِيَهُمْ كَمَا فَعَلَ إِيلِيَّا أَيْضاً؟»
التي حذفت
الحياة
54 فلما رأى ذلك تلميذاه يعقوب ويوحنا، قالا: «يارب، أتريد أن نأمر بأن تنزل النار من السماء وتلتهمهم؟»
المشتركة
54 فلما رأى ذلك تلميذاه يعقوب ويوحنا قالا: ((يا سيد، أتريد أن نأمر النّار فتنزل من السماء وتأكلهم؟))
المبسطة
وَلَمَّا رَأَى يَعقُوبُ وَيُوحَنَّا هَذَا قَالاَ: يَا رَبُّ، أَتُرِيْدُنَا أَنْ نَأْمُرَ بِأَنْ تَنزِلَ نَارٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ وَتُدَمِّرَهُمْ؟
البولسية
لو-9-54: فلمَّا رأَى ذلكَ التِّلميذَانِ، يعقوبُ ويوحنَّا، قالا: "يا ربّ، أَتريدُ أَنْ نَسْتَنزِلَ النَّارَ منَ السَّماءِ فتُحرِقَهم؟"
اليسوعية
54 فلما رأى ذلك تلميذاه يعقوب ويوحنا قالا: (( يا رب، أتريد أن نأمر النار فتنزل من السماء وتأكلهم؟ ))
الكاثوليكية
لو-9-54: فلمَّا رأَى ذلكَ تِلميذاهُ يَعقوبُ ويوحنَّا قالا: (( يا ربّ، أَتُريدُ أَن نَأمُرَ النَّارَ فتَنزِلَ مِنَ السَّماءِ وتَأكُلَهم؟ ))
وبالطبع اعرف ان البعض قد يقفز الي استنتاج ان الفانديك خطا لان كل التراجم العربية الاخري خالفتها ولكن بالدراسة اكثر سنكتشف العكس
التراجم الانجيلزية
اولا التي كتبت المقطع كامل
Luke 9:54
(Murdock) And when his disciples James and John saw [it], they said to him: Our Lord, wilt thou that we speak, and fire come down from heaven, and consume them, as also did Elijah?
(ALT) So His disciples James and John having seen [this], said, "Lord, do You want [that] we should tell [fig., command] fire to come down from heaven and to consume them, as also Elijah did?"
(ACV) And his disciples James and John having seen, they said, Lord, do thou want that we should call fire to come down from the sky, and consume them, as also Elijah did?
(AKJ) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
(ALTNT) So His disciples James and John having seen [this], said, "Lord, do You want [that] we should tell [fig., command] fire to come down from heaven and to consume them, as also Elijah did?"
(VW) And when His disciples Jacob and John saw this, they said, Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from Heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?
(Bishops) When his disciples, Iames & Iohn, sawe this, they sayde: Lord, wylt thou that we comaunde fire to come downe from heauen and consume them, euen as Elias dyd?
(CLV) Now perceiving it, His disciples, James and John, say, "Lord, art Thou willing? May we be telling fire to descend from heaven and consume them, as Elijah also does?
(Darby) And his disciples James and John seeing it said, Lord, wilt thou that we speak that fire come down from heaven and consume them, as also Elias did?
(DIA) Seeing and the disciples of him, James and John, said: O Lord, wilt thou we speak fire to come down from the heaven, and to consume them, as even Elias did?
(EMTV) And when they saw this, James and John His disciples said, "Lord, do You wish that we should call down fire from heaven and consume them, as Elijah did?"
(Etheridge) And when Jacub and Juchanon his disciples saw it, they say to him, Maran,[Our Lord.] art thou willing that we call fire to descend from heaven to consume them, as Elia did?
(EVID) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?
(Geneva) And when his disciples, Iames and Iohn sawe it, they saide, Lorde, wilt thou that we commaund, that fire come downe from heauen, and consume them, euen as Elias did?
(GLB) Da aber das seine Jünger Jakobus und Johannes sahen, sprachen sie: HERR, willst du, so wollen wir sagen, daß Feuer vom Himmel falle und verzehre sie, wie Elia tat.
(HCSB-r) When the disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?"
(HNV) When his talmidim, Ya`akov and Yochanan, saw this, they said, "Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from the sky, and destroy them, just as Eliyahu did?"
(IAV) And when his talmidim Yaakov and Yochanan saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Eliyahu did?
(ISV) When his disciples James and John saw this, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them, as Elijah did?
(JMNT) Now, upon seeing [this], the disciples Jacob (James) and John said, "Lord, are You now desiring that we should tell fire to come down from the sky (or: from the heaven) – and so to seize and take them up so as to overcome and ruin them, even as Elijah did?"
(JST) And when his disciples, James and John, saw that they would not receive him, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did?
(JOSMTH) And when his disciples, James and John, saw that they would not receive him, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did?
(KJ2000) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?
(KJVCNT) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, just as Elijah did?
(KJCNT) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, just as Elijah did?
(KJV) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
(KJV-Clar) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, just as Elijah did?
(KJV-1611) And when his disciples, Iames and Iohn sawe this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that wee command fire to come downe from heauen, and consume them, euen as Elias did?
(KJV21) And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?"
(KJVA) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
(LBP) When his disciples James and John saw it, they said to him, Our Lord, would you be willing that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?
(LitNT) AND SEEING [IT] HIS DISCIPLES JAMES AND JOHN SAID, LORD, WILT THOU [THAT] WE SHOULD CALL FIRE TO COME DOWN FROM THE HEAVEN, AND CONSUME THEM, AS ALSO ELIJAH DID?
(LITV) And seeing, His disciples, James and John, said Lord, do You desire that we tell fire to come down from Heaven, and to destroy them even as Elijah did? 2 K. 1:10-12
(LONT) His disciples, James and John, observing this, said, Master, shall we call down fire from heaven to consume them, as Elijah did?
(MKJV) And seeing, His disciples James and John said, Lord, do You desire that we command fire to come down from Heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?
us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?
(NLV) James and John, His followers, saw this. They said, 'Lord, do You want us to speak so fire will come down from heaven and burn them up as Elijah did?'
(Murdock R) And when his talmidim Yaaqub and Yokhanan saw [it], they said to him: Our Lord, will you that we speak, and fire come down from heaven, and consume them, as also did Eliyahu?
(RNKJV) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Rabbi, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as EliYah did?
(RYLT-NT) And his disciples James and John having seen, said, 'Sir, will you that we may command fire to come down from the heaven, and to consume them, as also Elijah did?'
(TMB) And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?"
(TRC) When his disciples, James, and John, saw that, they said: Lord, wilt thou that we command, that fire come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Helias did?
(Tyndale) When his disciples Iames and Iohn sawe yt they sayde: Lorde wilt thou that we comaunde that fyre come doune from heven and consume them even as Helias dyd?
(Webster) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did?
(Wesley's) And his disciples James and John seeing it said, Lord, Wilt thou that we bid fire come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?
(WESNT) And his disciples James and John seeing it said, Lord, Wilt thou that we bid fire come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?
(WORNT) And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, as Elias did?
(WTNT) When his disciples, Iames, and Ihon, saw that, they said: Lord, wilt thou that we command, that fire come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Helias did?
(YLT) And his disciples James and John having seen, said, `Sir, wilt thou that we may command fire to come down from the heaven, and to consume them, as also Elijah did?'
اما التي حذفته
(ASV) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we bid fire to come down from heaven, and consume them?
(BBE) And when his disciples, James and John, saw this, they said, Lord, may we send fire from heaven and put an end to them?
(CEV) When the disciples James and John saw what was happening, they asked, "Lord, do you want us to call down fire from heaven to destroy these people?"
(DRB) And when his disciples, James and John, had seen this, they said: Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?
(ESV) And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, "Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them?"[5]
(ERV) James and John, the followers of Jesus, saw this. They said, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven and destroy those people?"
(GNB) When the disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"
(GW) James and John, his disciples, saw this. They asked, "Lord, do you want us to call down fire from heaven to burn them up?"
(RV) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we bid fire to come down from heaven, and consume them?
(WNT) When the disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Master, do you wish us to order fire to come down from Heaven and consume them?"
ونري ان التراجم التقليدية والاغلبية بل وكثير من النقدية كتبت العدد الكامل . وفقط بعض التراجم النقدية هي التي حذفتها
النسخ اليوناني
اولا التي كتبت المقطع
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:54 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
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ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάννης εἶπον· Κύριε, θέλεις εἴπωμεν πῦρ καταβῆναι ἀπὸ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἀναλῶσαι αὐτούς, ὡς καὶ Ἠλίας ἐποίησε;
idontes de oi mathētai autou iakōbos kai iōannēs eipon kurie theleis eipōmen pur katabēnai apo tou ouranou kai analōsai autous ōs kai ēlias epoiēsen
(ABP+) And knowing,G1492 G1161 G3588 his disciplesG3101 G1473 JamesG* andG2532 JohnG* said,G2036 O Lord,G2962 do you wantG2309 we should tellG2036 fireG4442 to descendG2597 fromG575 G3588 heavenG3772 andG2532 consumeG355 themG1473 asG5613 alsoG2532 ElijahG* did?G4160
(ABP-G+) ιδοντες δεG1492 G1161 οιG3588 μαθηται αυτουG3101 G1473 ΙακωβοςG* καιG2532 ΙωαννηςG* ειπονG2036 κυριεG2962 θελειςG2309 ειπωμενG2036 πυρG4442 καταβηναιG2597 αποG575 τουG3588 ουρανουG3772 καιG2532 αναλωσαιG355 αυτουςG1473 ωςG5613 καιG2532 ΗλιαςG* εποιησεG4160
(GNT) ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ᾿Ιάκωβος καὶ ᾿Ιωάννης εἶπον· Κύριε, θέλεις εἴπωμεν πῦρ καταβῆναι ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἀναλῶσαι αὐτούς, ὡς καὶ ᾿Ηλίας ἐποίησε;
(GNT-V) ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται TSBαυτου ιακωβος και ιωαννης Aειπαν TSBειπον κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους TSBως TSBκαι TSBηλιας TSBεποιησεν
(IGNT+) ιδοντεςG1492 [G5631] δεG1161 οιG3588 AND SEEING "IT" μαθηταιG3101 αυτουG846 HIS DISCIPLES ιακωβοςG2385 JAMES καιG2532 AND ιωαννηςG2491 JOHN ειπονG2036 [G5627] SAID, κυριεG2962 LORD, θελειςG2309 [G5719] WILT THOU "THAT" ειπωμενG2036 [G5632] WE SHOULD CALL πυρG4442 FIRE καταβηναιG2597 [G5629] TO COME DOWN αποG575 FROM τουG3588 THE ουρανουG3772 HEAVEN, καιG2532 AND αναλωσαιG355 [G5658] CONSUME αυτουςG846 THEM, ωςG5613 AS καιG2532 ALSO ηλιαςG2243 ELIJAH εποιησενG4160 [G5656] DID?
(SNT) ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται αυτου ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπον κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους ως και ηλιας εποιησεν
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:54 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
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ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάννης εἶπον, Κύριε θέλεις εἴπωμεν πῦρ καταβῆναι ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἀναλῶσαι αὐτούς ὡς καὶ Ἠλίας ἐποίησεν
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:54 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
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ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται αυτου ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπον κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους ως και ηλιας εποιησεν
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ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:54 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
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ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται αυτου ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπον κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους ως και ηλιας εποιησεν
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ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:54 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
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ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται αυτου ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπον κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους ως και ηλιας εποιησεν
التي حذفته
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ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:54 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort
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ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπαν κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους
idontes de oi mathētai iakōbos kai iōannēs eipan kurie theleis eipōmen pur katabēnai apo tou ouranou kai analōsai autous
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 9:54 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed.
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ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπαν κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους
فنري ان النسخ اليوناني التي تمثل النص التقليدي والاغلبية كتبت المقطع كامل اما النسخ النقدية فحذفته
المخطوطات
اولا التي حذفته
هي بردية 45 و 75 والمخطوطة السينائية والفاتيكانية من القرن الرابع والقبطي الصعيدي
التي كتبته كامله
يوناني
الاسكندرية
من القرن الخامس
وصورتها
وصورة العدد
مخطوطة واشنطون من القرن الرابع او من القرن الثاني
وصورتها ( والعدد بين صفحتين )
وصورة المقطع
وايضا مخطوطة بيرزا
وهي من القرن الخامس وهي شقين يوناني ولاتيني
اليوناني
وصورة العدد
والجزء اللاتيني
وايضا الافرايمية من القرن الخامس
ومخطوطات الخط الكبير
K X Δ Θ Π Ψ
ومجموعة مخطوطات
f1 f13
ومخطوطات الخط الصغير
28 33 180 205 565 597 700c 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1216 1230 1242 1243 1253 1292 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174
ومجموعة المخطوطات البيزنطية ( تقرب من الالف )
Byz
ومخطوطات القراءات الكنسية
Lect l68 l1223
والترجمات اللاتينية القديمة والتي بدات من منتصف القرن الثاني
itd itf
والترجمات السريانية
اولا الاشورية خابوس وهي تعود تقريبا الي سنة 168 م
9:54 And when Jacub and Juchanon his disciples saw it, they say to him, Maran,* art thou willing that we call fire to descend from heaven to consume them, as Elia did?
والبشيتا من القرن الرابع
syrp
(Peshitta) ܘܟܕ ܚܙܘ ܝܥܩܘܒ ܘܝܘܚܢܢ ܬܠܡܝܕܘܗܝ ܐܡܪܝܢ ܠܗ ܡܪܢ ܨܒܐ ܐܢܬ ܕܢܐܡܪ ܘܬܚܘܬ ܢܘܪܐ ܡܢ ܫܡܝܐ ܘܬܤܝܦ ܐܢܘܢ ܐܝܟ ܕܐܦ ܐܠܝܐ ܥܒܕ ܀
(Peshita X) WKD XZW YEQWB WYWXNN TLMYDWHY AMRYN LH MRN CBA ANT DNAMR WTXWT NWRA MN $MYA WTSYP ANWN AYK DAP ALYA EBD ;
(Lamsa) When his disciples James and John saw it, they said to him, Our Lord, would you be willing that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?
وايضا بقية الترجمات السريانية مثل
syrh syrpal
وبعض مخطوطات الترجمة القبطية البحيري
copbo(pt)
والغوصية
goth
(WulfilaGothic) [CA] gasaihvandans þan siponjos is Iakobus jah Iohannes qeþun: frauja, wileizu ei qiþaima, fon atgaggai us himina jah fraqimai im, swe jah Heleias gatawida?
(GotNT) [CA] gasaihvandans ?an siponjos is Iakobus jah Iohannes qe?un: frauja, wileizu ei qi?aima, fon atgaggai us himina jah fraqimai im, swe jah Heleias gatawida?
والجوارجينية
geo2
والاثيوبية
eth
والسلافينية
slav
ودليل اخر مهم وهو كتاب الدياتسرون
Diatessarona Diatessarons
وبعض اقوال الاباء مثل
Basil
Chrysostom
Antiochus
بل وايضا من نسخة انجيل لوقا للهرطوقي مركيون من سنة 140 م تقريبا
Marcion
فالادلة الخارجية رغم ان للنص النقدي قديمة ولكنها منطقة واحده ولكن للنص التقليدي اقدم واكثر تنوع وانتشار مما يجعل الادلة الخارجية تؤكد اصالة المقطع والنص التقليدي
والتحليل الداخلي
في البداية البعض قال انه ماخوذ فكره من العهد القديم فكتب كهامش ثم ادخل في المتن والرد علي ذلك شيئين
اولا لايوجد مخطوطة واحده يوجد بها المقطع في الهامش كما قالوا
ثانيا لو اقتبسوه من العهد القديم فاين هذا المقطع بهذه الطريقه النصيه في العهد القديم ؟ الاجابه لا يوجد
ولهذا هذا الفرضية غير مقبولة
اما عن سبب الحذف فقد قدم زاهن تفسير لهذا الامر وهو له علاقه بالجزء الثاني من عدد 55 وبداية عدد 56 وهذا بسبب اعتقاد البعض ان هذا التعبير يناسب فكر ماركيون الهرطوقي
وبناء علي قاعدة
The reading which is susceptible to a heterodox interpretation is best.
القراءه التي عرضه لتاويل الهراطقه هي الافضل
فيكون النص التقليدي الذي هو عرضة لتاويل الهراطقة مثل ماركيون هو الافضل
وايضا كما وضح زاهن ان الخطأ مرتبط بما في عدد 55 ب و 56 أ فيكون بناء علي قاعدة
If a similar variants occur in several places, the reading more strongly attested in the later points of variation is best.
لو كان هناك متغيرات متشابه في عدة اماكن تكون القراءه التي لها شواهد اكثر في نقط لاحقه هي القراءه الافضل
والحقيقه هذا التعبير الذي ذكره لوقا الطبيب هو يوضح لماذا ذكر مرقس علي يعقوب ويوحنا ابني الرعد
إنجيل مرقس 3: 17
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وَيَعْقُوبَ بْنَ زَبْدِي وَيُوحَنَّا أَخَا يَعْقُوبَ، وَجَعَلَ لَهُمَا اسْمَ بُوَانَرْجِسَ أَيِ ابْنَيِ الرَّعْدِ. |
فلا نجد في الاناجيل اي شيئ يكشف لماذا وصفا بهذا التعبير غير العدد الذي في لوقا 9: 54 الذي يوضح ان بهما روح نارية تحتاج الي قياده ولهذا لقبا بابني الرعد
وبناء علي قاعدة
The reading which best fits the context or the author's theology( and ideology ) is best.
القراءه التي تناسب الفكر اللاهوتي للكاتب هي الافضل
واكتفي بهذا القدر
والمجد لله دائما