صَانِعُ السَّلاَمِ وَخَالِقُ الشَّرِّ
Holy_bible_1
الشبهة
اولا
يقول البعض انه يوجد اختلاف في التراجم
البعض يقول صانع السلام والاخر يقول صانع الخير فما هي الكلمه الحقيقيه السلام ام الخير ؟
ثانيا
هل اله المسيحيه هو خالق الشر ؟ كيف يكون هذا ؟
الرد
اولا هل الكلمه الاصليه سلام ام خير ؟
التراجم العربي
الفانديك
7 مُصَوِّرُ النُّورِ وَخَالِقُ الظُّلْمَةِ صَانِعُ السَّلاَمِ وَخَالِقُ الشَّرِّ. أَنَا الرَّبُّ صَانِعُ كُلِّ هَذِهِ.
الحياة
7 أنا مبدع النور وخالق الظلمة، أنا صانع الخير وخالق الضر، أنا هو الرب فاعل كل هذه.
السارة
7 أنا مبدع النور وخالق الظلمة. وصانع الهناء وخالق الشقاء. أنا الرب صانع هذا كله)).
اليسوعية
7 أنا مبدع النور وخالق الظلام وصانع الهناء وخالق الشقاء أنا الرب صانع هذه كلها.
المشتركة
اش-45-7: أنا مُبدِعُ النُّورِ وخالِقُ الظُّلمةِ. وصانِعُ الهَناءِ وخالِقُ الشَّقاءِ. أنا الرّبُّ صانِعُ هذا كُلِّهِ)).
الكاثوليكية
اش-45-7: أَنا مُبدِعُ النُّورِ وخالِقُ الظَّلام وصانِعُ الهَناءَ وخالِقُ الشَّقاء أَنا الرَّبُّ صانِعُ هذه كُلِّها.
اتت بمعني سلام او خير او هناء
التراجم الانجليزي
Isa 45:7
(ASV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
(BBE) I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
(Bishops) It is I that created light and darknesse, I make peace and trouble: yea euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.
(CEV) I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all of this.
(Darby) forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
(DRB) I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
(ESV) I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.
(Geneva) I forme the light and create darkenes: I make peace and create euill: I the Lorde doe all these things.
(GNB) I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.
(GW) I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.
(HOT) יוצר אור ובורא חשׁך עשׂה שׁלום ובורא רע אני יהוה עשׂה כל־אלה׃
(JPS) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
(KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(KJVA) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(LITV) forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.
(MKJV) forming the light and creating darkness; making peace and creating evil. I Jehovah do all these things.
(RV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
(Webster) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(YLT) Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
(Vulgate) formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec
واتت في الترجمه بكلمة سلام وخير وهناء ايضا
السبعينية
Isaiah
45:7 Greek OT:
Septuagint
................................................................................
εγω
ο κατασκευασας φως και ποιησας σκοτος
ο ποιων ειρηνην και κτιζων κακα εγω
κυριος ο θεος ο ποιων ταυτα
παντα
................................................................................
Isaiah
45:7 Greek OT: Septuagint -
Transliterated
................................................................................
egō
o kataskeuasas phōs kai poiēsas skotos o poiōn eirēnēn kai
ktizōn kaka egō kurios o theos o poiōn tauta panta
45:7 I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.
الماسوريتك
45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
7 ywōṣēr ’wōr ûḇwōrē’ ḥōšeḵə ‘ōśeh šālwōm ûḇwōrē’ rā‘ ’ănî yəhwâ ‘ōśeh ḵāl-’ēlleh: s
باقي النسخ العبري
ישעה
45:7
Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants
Only)
................................................................................
יוצר
אור ובורא חשך עשה
שלום
ובורא רע אני יהוה
עשה
כל־אלה׃
ס
................................................................................
ישעה
45:7
Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad
Codex
................................................................................
יֹוצֵ֥ר
אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה
שָׁלֹ֖ום
וּבֹ֣ורֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה
כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃
ס
................................................................................
ישעה
45:7
Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants
Only)
................................................................................
יוצר
אור ובורא חשך עשה
שלום
ובורא רע אני יהוה
עשה
כל־אלה׃
ס
................................................................................
ישעה
45:7
Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants &
Vowels)
................................................................................
יֹוצֵר
אֹור וּבֹורֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה
שָׁלֹום
וּבֹורֵא
רָע אֲנִי יְהוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵלֶּה׃
ס
................................................................................
ישעה
45:7
Hebrew OT: Aleppo
Codex
................................................................................
ז
יוצר אור ובורא חשך עשה
שלום
ובורא רע אני
יהוה
עשה כל אלה
{פ}
................................................................................
ישעה
45:7
Hebrew
Bible
................................................................................
יוצר
אור ובורא חשך עשה
שלום
ובורא רע אני יהוה
עשה
כל אלה׃
مخطوطة قمران لسفر اشعياء
[d
طوف = جيد
يوشيم =
I am the former
of the light, and creator of darkness:
13. making good
{m..peace..m), and creating evil: I YHWH am doing all these things
كمالة الكلمة في مخطوطة قمران غير ظاهره جيدا
ولكنها غالبا شالوم
مخطوطة اليبوا
والكلمه الموجوده بها
עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם
Make peace
صانع السلام
وبعد ان تاكدنا ان الكلمه الاصليه هي اساه شالوم العبريه
معني الكلمة
H6213
עשׂה
‛âśâh
aw-saw'
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.
H7965
שׁלם שׁלום
shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.
اي ان الكلمه العبريه تعني كل الثلاث معاني السلام والهناء والخير ولكن ادق المعاني هو السلام ولذلك في النص المسلم التقليدي ترجمها صانع السلام وهو ادق ترجمه لكن من ترجمه للخير او الهناء لم يخطئ ايضا
اقوال الاباء
القديس ايرينيؤس
Chapter XL.—One and the same God the Father inflicts punishment on the reprobate, and bestows rewards on the elect.
1.
It is therefore one and the same God the Father who has prepared good
things with Himself for those who desire His fellowship, and who
remain in subjection to Him; and who has the eternal fire for the
ringleader of the apostasy, the devil, and those who revolted with
him, into which [fire] the Lord44254425
Matt.
xxv. 41.
has
declared those men shall be sent who have been set apart by
themselves on His left hand. And this is what has been spoken by the
prophet, “I am a jealous God, making
peace, and creating evil things;”44264426
Isa.
xlv. 7.
thus
making peace and friendship with those who repent and turn to Him,
and bringing [them to] unity, but preparing for the impenitent, those
who shun the light, eternal fire and outer darkness, which are evils
indeed to those persons who fall into them.
Volume 1
يصنع سلام وصداقه مع الذين يتوبوا ويرجعوا اليه ويحضرهم للوحدانيه ولكن يعد للغير تائبين النار الابديه والظلمه الخارجيه الذي هو حقا شر للذين يسقطون فيه
العلامه ترتليان
over
the question of the origin of evil, his perception became blunted by
the very irregularity of his researches; and when he found the
Creator declaring, “I am He that createth evil,”23522352
Isa.
xlv. 7.
inasmuch
as he had already concluded from other arguments, which are
satisfactory to every perverted mind, that God is the author of evil,
so he now applied to the Creator the figure of the corrupt tree
bringing forth evil fruit, that is, moral evil,23532353
Mala.
and
then presumed that there ought to be another god, after the analogy
of the good tree producing its good fruit.
ويقول ايضا
On
all occasions does God meet you: it is He who smites, but also heals;
who kills, but also makes alive; who humbles, and yet exalts; who
“creates28672867
Condens.
evil,”
but
also “makes peace;”28682868
See Isa.
xlv. 7.
—so
that from these very (contrasts of His providence) I may get an
answer to the heretics. Behold, they say, how He acknowledges Himself
to be the creator of evil in the passage, “It is I who create
evil.” They take a word whose one form reduces to confusion and
ambiguity two kinds of evils (because both sins and punishments are
called evils),
and will have Him in every passage to be understood as the creator of
all evil things, in order that He may be designated the author of
evil.
وايضا
Why,
in your interpretation, do you impute a difference in the state of
things to a difference of powers? Why do you wrest to the Creator’s
prejudice those examples from which you draw your antitheses, when
you may recognise them all in His sensations and affections? “I
will wound,” He says, “and I will heal;” “I will kill,” He
says again, “and I will make alive”35083508
Deut.
xxxii. 39.
—even
347the
same “who
createth evil and maketh peace;”35093509
Isa.
xlv. 7.
from
which you are used even to censure Him with the imputation of
fickleness and inconstancy, as if He forbade what He commanded, and
commanded what He forbade.
Volume 3
3.
Seeing therefore, too, these cases occur in persecutions more than at
other times, as there is then among us more of proving or rejecting,
more of abusing or punishing, it must be that their general
occurrence is permitted or commanded by Him at whose will they happen
even partially; by Him, I mean, who says, “I
am He who make peace and create evil,”11451145
Isa.
xlv. 7.
—that
is, war, for that is the antithesis of peace. But what other
war has our peace than persecution? If in its issues
persecution emphatically brings either life or death, either wounds
or healing, you have the author, too, of this. “I will smite
and heal, I will make alive and put to death.”11461146
Deut.
xxxii. 39.
“I will burn them,” He says, “as gold is burned; and I will try
them,” He says, “as silver is tried,”11471147
Zech.
xiii. 9.
for
when the flame of persecution is consuming us, then the stedfastness
of our faith is proved. These will be the fiery darts of the
devil, by which faith gets a ministry of burning and kindling; yet by
the will of God.
Volume 4
ويشرح تفصيليا
Chapter LVI.
If
we speak, however, of what are called “corporeal” and “external”
evils,—which are improperly so termed,—then it may be granted
that there are
occasions when some of these have been called into existence by God,
in order that by their means the conversion of certain individuals
might be effected. And what absurdity would follow from such a
course? For as, if we should hear those sufferings45634563
πόνους.
improperly
termed “evils” which are inflicted by fathers, and instructors,
and pedagogues upon those who are under their care, or upon patients
who are operated upon or cauterized by the surgeons in order to
effect a cure, we were to say that a father was ill-treating his son,
or pedagogues and instructors their pupils, or physicians their
patients, no blame would be laid upon the operators or chastisers;
so, in the same way, if God is said to bring upon men such evils for
the conversion and cure of those who need this discipline, there
would be no absurdity in the view, nor would “evils come down from
the Lord
upon the gates of Jerusalem,”45644564
Cf. Mic.
i. 12.
—which
evils consist of the punishments inflicted upon the Israelites by
their enemies with a view to their conversion; nor would one visit
“with a rod the transgressions of those who forsake the law of the
Lord, and their iniquities with stripes;”45654565
Cf. Ps.
lxxxix. 32.
nor
could it be said, “Thou hast coals of fire to set upon them; they
shall be to thee a help.”45664566
Cf. Isa.
xlvii. 14, 15
(LXX.).
In the same way also we explain the expressions, “I,
who make peace, and create evil;”45674567
Cf. Isa.
xlv. 7.
for
He calls into existence “corporeal” or “external” evils,
while purifying and training those who would not be disciplined by
the word and sound doctrine. This, then, is our answer to the
question, “How is it that God created evil?”
هيبوليتوس
just
as the day of judgment is called the evil day, as being laden with
miseries and 172pains
for sinners. To the same effect is the word of Isaiah, “I,
the Lord, make peace, and create evil;”12161216
Isa.
xlv. 7.
meaning
by that, I maintain peace, and permit war.
Volume 5
ارخيلاؤس
why
do you not find fault with the other, who says, “Depart from me
into everlasting fire?”21642164
Matt.
xxv. 41.
If
you find fault with Him who says, “I, God,
make peace, and create evil,”21652165
Isa.
xlv. 7.
explain
to us how Jesus says, “I came not to send peace, but a
sword.”21662166
Matt.
x. 34.
Various of the mss.
add, ἐπὶ
τὴν
γῆν,
upon the earth.
Since
both persons speak in the same terms, one or other of these two
things must follow: namely, either they are both good21672167
The text gives καλοί.
Routh seems to prefer κακοί,
evil.
because
they use the same language; or, if Jesus passes without censure
though He speaks in such terms, you must tell us why you reprehend
Him who employs a similar mode of address in the Old Testament.
Volume6
القديس يوحنا ذهبي الفم
This
then is that which the prophet saith “There is no evil in the city
which the Lord hath not done.” This too by means of Isaiah God has
made clear saying “I am God
who maketh peace and createth evil,”564564
Isa.
xlv. 7.
again
naming calamities evils. This evil also Christ hints at, thus saying
to the disciples, “sufficient for the day is the evil
thereof,”565565
Matt.
vi. 34.
that
is to say the affliction, the misery. It is manifest then on all
sides, that he here calls punishment evil; and himself brings these
upon us, affording us the greatest view of his providence.
Volume 9
وايضا
And
again, “I,” saith He, “make peace, and create
evils:”953953 Isa.
xlv. 7.
For
neither in this place doth He speak of wickedness,954954 [κακαν,
the word rendered “evil” throughout this passage.—R.]
but
of famines, and pestilences, things accounted evil by most men: the
generality being wont to call these things evil. Thus, for example,
the priests and prophets of those five lordships, when having yoked
the kine to the ark, they let them go without their calves,955955 1
Sam. vi. 9.
gave
the name of “evil” to those heaven-sent plagues, and 151
the dismay and anguish which thereby sprang up within them.
This then is His meaning here also, when He saith, “sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” For nothing so pains the soul, as carefulness and anxiety. Thus did Paul also, when urging to celibacy, give counsel, saying, “I would have you without carefulness
Volume 10
الاعتراض الثاني
خالق الشر
يقولون كيف يخلق الله الشر وهو يقول لايجرب احد بالشرور
اشعياء
45: 7 مصور النور و خالق الظلمة صانع السلام و خالق الشر انا الرب صانع كل هذه
اولا لغويا
|
7. |
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. |
יֹוצֵר אֹור וּבֹורֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלֹום וּבֹורֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל־אֵלֶּה׃ ס |
ἐγὼ ὁ κατασκευάσας φῶς καὶ ποιήσας σκότος ὁ ποιῶν εἰρήνην καὶ κτίζων κακά ἐγὼ κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ ποιῶν ταῦτα πάντα |
formans lucem et creans tenebras, faciens pacem et creans malum: ego Dominus faciens omnia haec. |
.7 |
هنا ثمار الشر مش ذات الشر
H7451
רעה
רע
רַע
רָעָה ra‛
râ‛âh
rah,
raw-aw‘
From
7489
bad or
(as noun) evil
(naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as
adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, +
displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), +
exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill
(favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome,
+ not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly,
-ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine
ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
اي يتكلم عن اعمال الشر و نتائج الشر وليس ذات الشر
ابونا تادرس
جاءت كلمة "الشر ra " لا بمعنى الخطية وإنما ثمر الخطية أو عقوبتها من حزن وضيق. يقول القديس يوحنا الذهبي الفم: [يوجد شر هو بالحقيقة شر: الزنا، الدعارة، الطمع، وأشياء أخرى مخفية بلا عدد تستحق التوبيخ الشديد والعقوبة. كما يوجد أيضًا شر هو في الحقيقة ليس شرًا، إنما يدعى كذلك مثل المجاعة، الكارثة، الموت، المرض وما أشبه ذلك؛ فإن هذه ليست شرورًا وإنما تدعى هكذا. لماذا؟ لأنها لو كانت شرورًا لما كانت تصبح مصدرًا لخيرنا، إذ تؤدب كبرياءنا وتكاسلنا، وتقودنا إلى الغيرة، وتجعلنا أكثر يقظة ]. بنفس المعنى يقول الأب ثيؤدور في مناظرات القديس يوحنا كاسيان: [اعتاد الكتاب المقدس أن يستخدم تعبيريْ "شرور"، "أحزان" في معان غير مناسبة، فإنها ليست شريرة في طبيعتها وإنما دُعيت كذلك لأنه يظن أنها شرور بالنسبة لمن لم تسبب لهم خيرًا ].
ثانيا تاريخيا
الكلام موجه الي كورش الذي كان عنده عقيدة عبادة الاهين الخير والشر
خالق الشر = فبعض الأمم الوثنية ومنهم الفرس كان لهم إيمان بأن هناك إلهين اله للخير وإله للشر. والمعنى هنا أنه ليس سوى إله واحد والشر هو بسماح منه. والله لا يتسبب في الشر أو الخطية، فالخطية هي عدم القدرة أو فشل الإنسان في أن يحيا في بر، فالسرقة هي فشل الإنسان أن يحيا أميناً. ولكن الشر المقصود هنا هو ما يحسبه الإنسان شراًُ مثل الحروب والأمراض والموت، وهذه يسمح بها الله وهدفها التأديب. و كلمة شر هنا جاءت ليست بمعنى خطية ولكن الأثار التي تسببها الخطية من حزن وضيق وآلام. هذه الأثار هي نتيجة الخطية ولكن الله بمحبته حول هذه الآلام للتأديب للخلاص وهنا معنى ما نصلى به بالقداس الغريغورى "حولت لي العقوبة خلاصاً".
ثالثا روحيا
الاية تقول خالق النور والظلمه والظلمه غير مخلوقه لكنها نتيجة غياب النور
صانع السلام والشر وايضا الشر غير مخلوق لكنه نتيجة غياب السلام
واخير رئيس الشر وهو الشيطان سطانائل الذي اسبح سطان فقط من غير ئيل
اي من قوة الله تحول الي قوة وهي بدون الله فهي شر ولكن الله لم يخلقه شرير . الشيطان باختياره اخطأ وانفصل عن الله
ويوم الشرير هو يوم العقاب
سفر الأمثال 16: 4
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اَلرَّبُّ صَنَعَ الْكُلَّ لِغَرَضِهِ، وَالشِّرِّيرَ أَيْضًا لِيَوْمِ الشَّرِّ |
وايضا التجارب التي يسمح به الرب لينقي الانسان في صورة شر يقود للخير
وهذا ما شرحه الاباء في الجزء السابق الخاص باقوال الاباء
والمجد لله دائما