هل العدد الذي يقول ورجال يهوذا ثلاثين الف محرف وشهادة مخطوطات قمران ؟ 1 صم 11: 8
الشبهة
الشبهة ملخصها ان العدد محرف لانه يقول رجال يهوذا ثلاثين الف رغم ان مخطوطة قمران والسبعينية واللاتينية القديمة ويوسيفوس يقولوا سبعين الف
الرد
ساقسم الرد الي الاتي وهو دراسة ما قالت التراجم المختلفه الحديثة اولا العربي ثم الانجليزي ثم التراجم القديمة والمخطوطات وبعد فهم ذلك جيدا ندرس الادله التي قدمها المشككين ونقيس الادله معا ثم بعد ذلك تحليل داخلي يوضح اي قراءه هي الصحيحة
التراجم العربي
وهي انواع منها التقليديه ومنها التفسيرية ومنها النقدية التي تقارن بين العبري والسبعينية وتميل الي النص النقدي لو هناك اي شك في ان السبعينية اصح
الفانديك
8 وَعَدَّهُمْ فِي بَازَقَ فَكَانَ بَنُو إِسْرَائِيلَ ثَلاَثَ مِئَةِ أَلْفٍ, وَرِجَالُ يَهُوذَا ثَلاَثِينَ أَلْفاً.
الحياة
8 وأحصاهم شاول في بازق فبلغ عددهم ثلاث مئة ألف، فضلا عن ثلاثين ألفا من رجال يهوذا.
السارة
8 فعدهم شاول في بازاق، فكان بنو إسرائيل ثلاث مئة ألف رجل. ورجال يهوذا ثلاثين ألفا.
اليسوعية
8 فاستعرضهم في بازاق، فكان بنو إسرائيل ثلاث مئة ألف رجل، ورجال يهوذا ثلاثين ألفا .
المشتركة
1صم-11-8: فعدَّهُم شاوُلُ في بازاقَ، فكانَ بَنو إِسرائيلَ ثَلاثَ مئَةِ ألفِ رَجلٍ. ورِجالُ يَهوذا ثَلاثينَ ألفًا.
الكاثوليكية
1صم-11-8: فاستَعرَضهم في بازاق، فكانَ بَنو إِسْرائيلَ ثَلاثَ مِئَةِ أَلفِ رَجُل، ورِجالُ يَهوذا ثَلاثينَ أَلفًا .
اذا التراجم العربي بكل انواعها ومرجعيتها المختلفه من مخطوطات اكدت ان الكلمة الاصلية هي ثلاثين الف
التراجم الانجليزية
(ACV) And he numbered them in Bezek, and the sons of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(AKJ) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(AMP) And he numbered them at Bezek, and the Israelites were 300,000 and the men of Judah 30,000.
(ASV) And he numbered them in Bezek; and the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(BBE) And he had them numbered in Bezek: the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(VW) And when he numbered them at Bezek, the sons of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(Bishops) And whe he numbred them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand men, and the men of Iuda thirtie thousande.
(CEV) at Bezek. Saul had them organized and counted. There were three hundred thousand from Israel and thirty thousand from Judah.
(CJB) He reviewed them in Bezek; there were 300,000 from the people of Isra'el; the men of Y'hudah numbered 30,000.
(CLV) And he inspects them in Bezek, and the sons of Israel are three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(Darby) And he numbered them in Bezek, and the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(DRB) And he numbered them in Bezec: and there were of the children of Israel three hundred thousand: and of the men of Juda thirty thousand.
(ESV) When he mustered them at Bezek, the people of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(ERV) Saul gathered the men together at Bezek. There were 300,000 men from Israel and 30,000 men from Judah.
(FDB) Et Saül les dénombra en Bézek; et les fils d'Israël étaient trois cent mille, et les hommes de Juda trente mille.
(FLS) Saül en fit la revue à Bézek; les enfants d'Israël étaient trois cent mille, et les hommes de Juda trente mille.
(Geneva) And when he nombred them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundreth thousande men: and the men of Iudah thirtie thousand.
(GLB) Und er musterte sie zu Besek; und der Kinder Israel waren dreihundert mal tausend Mann und der Kinder Juda dreißigtausend.
(GNB) Saul gathered them at Bezek: there were 300,000 from Israel and 30,000 from Judah.
(GW) When Saul counted them at Bezek, there were 300,000 troops from Israel and 30,000 troops from Judah.
(HCSB-r) Saul counted them at Bezek. There were 300,000 Israelites and 30,000 men from Judah.
(HNV) He numbered them in Bezek; and the children of Yisra'el were three hundred thousand, and the men of Yehudah thirty thousand.
(csb) Saul counted them at Bezek. There were 300,000 Israelites and 30,000 men from Judah.
(IAV) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Yisrael were three hundred thousand, and the men of Yhudah thirty thousand.
(ISRAV) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Yisrael were three hundred thousand, and the men of Yhudah thirty thousand.
(JST) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(JOSMTH) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(JPS) And he numbered them in Bezek; and the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(KJ2000) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(KJV) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(KJV-1611) And when he numbred them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Iudah thirty thousand.
(KJV21) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(KJVA) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(LBP) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(LITV) And he mustered them in Bezek, and the sons of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah, thirty thousand.
(MKJV) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the sons of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(MSG) Saul took command of the people at Bezek. There were 300,000 men from Israel, another 30,000 from Judah.
(nas) He numbered [85] them in Bezek; (323) and the sons (324) of Israel were 300,000, and the men of Judah 30,000.
(NCV) Saul gathered the people together at Bezek. There were three hundred thousand men from Israel and thirty thousand men from Judah.
(NET.) When Saul counted them at Bezek, the Israelites were three hundred thousand strong and the men of Judah numbered thirty thousand.
(NET) When Saul counted them at Bezek, the Israelites were three hundred thousand9 strong and the men of Judah numbered thirty thousand.10
(NIRV) Saul brought his army together at Bezek. There were 300,000 men from Israel and 30,000 from Judah.
(NIV) When Saul mustered them at Bezek, the men of Israel numbered three hundred thousand and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(NIVUK) When Saul mustered them at Bezek, the men of Israel numbered three hundred thousand and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(NKJV) When he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(NLT) When Saul mobilized them at Bezek, he found that there were 300,000 men of Israel, in addition to 30,000 from Judah.
(NLV) Saul numbered them at Bezek. There were 300,000 men of Israel, and 30,000 men of Judah.
(NWT) Then he took the sum of them in Be'zek, and the sons of Israel amounted to three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(RNKJV) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(RSVA) When he mustered them at Bezek, the men of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(RV) And he numbered them in Bezek; and the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(TMB) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(TNIV) When Saul mustered them at Bezek, the men of Israel numbered three hundred thousand and those of Judah thirty thousand.
(TRC) And when they were numbered in Bezek the children of Israel were three hundredth thousand, and the men of Juda thirty thousand.
(UPDV) And he numbered them in Bezek; and the sons of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(Webster) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
(YLT) And he inspecteth them in Bezek, and the sons of Israel are three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
وكل هذه الترجمات ( فيما عدا ترجمه انجليزيه واحده للنص السبعيني ) حديثه وقديمه نقدية وتقليديه وتفسيريه بمختلف مرجعايتها من المخطوطات اتفقت علي رقم ثلاثين الف
ويهمني ترجمه انجليزيه من سنة 1380 م تقريبا لجون ويكليف
(Wycliffe) And he noumbride hem in Besech; and thre hundrid thousynd weren of the sones of Israel; forsothe of the men of Juda weren thretti thousynde.
وايضا تشهد لثلاثين الف
وابدا الان في النسخ القديمة
وابدا واحده من اهم النسخ القديمه لانها من القرن الرابع الميلادي وهي نسخة الفلجاتا للقديس جيروم الذي كان مطلع علي اللاتينية وعلي النص العبري بمخطوطاته وايضا السبعينية
(Vulgate) et recensuit eos in Bezec fueruntque filiorum Israhel trecenta milia virorum autem Iuda triginta milia
ومصدر الفلجاتا هو المخطوطات قبل القرن الرابع الميلادي
وايضا البشيتا السريانية من القرن الرابع ايضا يشهد لقراءة ثلاثين الف
ويهمني ترجمه انجليزيه من سنة 1380 م تقريبا لجون ويكليف
(Wycliffe) And he noumbride hem in Besech; and thre hundrid thousynd weren of the sones of Israel; forsothe of the men of Juda weren thretti thousynde.
وايضا تشهد لثلاثين الف
وايضا نص مهم وهو نص نقدي وهو نت بايبل وهذا لانه دائما يميل الي ان يخالف النص التقليدي ولكنه في هذا العدد يؤيد النص التقليدي
8 When Saul counted them at Bezek, the Israelites were 300,000 strong and the men of Judah numbered 30,000.
وابدا الان في النسخ القديمة
وابدا واحده من اهم النسخ القديمه لانها من القرن الرابع الميلادي وهي نسخة الفلجاتا للقديس جيروم الذي كان مطلع علي اللاتينية وعلي النص العبري بمخطوطاته وايضا السبعينية
(Vulgate) et recensuit eos in Bezec fueruntque filiorum Israhel trecenta milia virorum autem Iuda triginta milia
|
8 |
And he numbered them in Bezec: and there were of the children of Israel three hundred thousand: and of the men of Juda thirty thousand. |
et recensuit eos in Bezec fueruntque filiorum Israhel trecenta milia virorum autem Iuda triginta milia |
ومصدر الفلجاتا هو المخطوطات قبل القرن الرابع الميلادي
وايضا البشيتا السريانية من القرن الرابع ايضا يشهد لقراءة ثلاثين الف
وترجمته للدكتور لمزا
(Lamsa) And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand and the men of Judah thirty thousand.
وايضا السريانية القديمه للعهد القديم التي تعود الي القرن الثالث الميلادي
ايضا تشهد لقراءة 30000
اذا النص العبري الذي كان منتشر في مصر وشمال افريقيا وايضا في الشام من قبل القرن الثالث هو ثلاثين الف
ايضا التلمود وهو يعود الي القرن الثاني الميلادي
وهو يشهد لقراءة ثلاثين الف
النصوص العبري
بالطبع اولا النص التقليدي المعترف به من كل اليهود والمسيحيين وهو الماسوريتك الدقيق جدا ويقول
H7970
שׁלשׁים שׁלושׁים
shelôshı̂ym shelôshı̂ym
shel-o-sheem', shel-o-sheem'
Multiple of H7969; thirty; or (ordinal) thirtieth: - thirty, thirtieth. Compare H7991.
شيلوشيم = ثلاثين
H505
אלף
'eleph
eh'-lef
Properly the same as H504; hence (an ox’s head being the first letter of the alphabet, and this eventually used as a numeral) a thousand: - thousand.
الف = 1000
وايضا النسخ العبرية
(BHS)
וַיִּפְקְדֵם בְּבָזֶק וַיִּהְיוּ בְנֵי־יִשְׂרָאֵל שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאֹות אֶלֶף וְאִישׁ יְהוּדָה שְׁלֹשִׁים אָלֶף׃
(HOT)
ויפקדם בבזק ויהיו בני־ישׂראל שׁלשׁ מאות אלף ואישׁ יהודה שׁלשׁים אלף׃
(WLC)
וַֽיִּפְקְדֵ֖ם בְּבָ֑זֶק וַיִּהְי֤וּ בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ שְׁלֹ֣שׁ מֵאֹ֣ות אֶ֔לֶף וְאִ֥ישׁ יְהוּדָ֖ה שְׁלֹשִׁ֥ים אָֽלֶף׃
AKOT
וַיִּפְקְדֵם בְּבָזֶק וַיִּהְיוּ בְנֵי־יִשְׂרָאֵל שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת אֶלֶף וְאִישׁ יְהוּדָה שְׁלֹשִׁים אָלֶף
AFAT
וַיִּפְקְדֵם בְּבָזֶק וַיִּהְיוּ בְנֵי־יִשְׂרָאֵל שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת אֶלֶף וְאִישׁ יְהוּדָה שְׁלֹשִׁים אָלֶף׃
LHI
וַיִּפְקְדֵם בְּבָזֶק וַיִּהְיוּ בְנֵי־יִשְׂרָאֵל שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת אֶלֶף וְאִישׁ יְהוּדָה שְׁלֹשִׁים אָלֶף׃
שמואל
א
11:8
Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants
Only)
................................................................................
ויפקדם
בבזק
ויהיו
בני־ישראל
שלש
מאות
אלף
ואיש
יהודה
שלשים
אלף׃
................................................................................
................................................................................
שמואל
א
11:8
Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants
Only)
................................................................................
ויפקדם
בבזק
ויהיו
בני־ישראל
שלש
מאות
אלף
ואיש
יהודה
שלשים
אלף׃
................................................................................
................................................................................
שמואל
א
11:8
Hebrew OT: Aleppo
Codex
................................................................................
ח
ויפקדם
בבזק
ויהיו
בני
ישראל
שלש
מאות
אלף
ואיש
יהודה
שלשים
אלף
................................................................................
שמואל
א
11:8
Hebrew
Bible
................................................................................
ויפקדם
בבזק
ויהיו
בני
ישראל
שלש
מאות
אלף
ואיש
יהודה
שלשים
אלף׃
وايضا كل النصوص العبرية المستخدمه في التفاسير العبرية مثل راشي وغيره قديمه وحديثه كلها ثلاثين الف
ومخطوطة لننجراد نصها ثلاثين الف
שמואל
א
11:8
Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants &
Vowels)
................................................................................
וַיִּפְקְדֵם
בְּבָזֶק
וַיִּהְיוּ
בְנֵי־יִשְׂרָאֵל
שְׁלֹשׁ
מֵאֹות
אֶלֶף
וְאִישׁ
יְהוּדָה
שְׁלֹשִׁים
אָלֶף׃
שמואל
א
11:8
Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad
Codex
................................................................................
וַֽיִּפְקְדֵ֖ם
בְּבָ֑זֶק
וַיִּהְי֤וּ
בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙
שְׁלֹ֣שׁ
מֵאֹ֣ות
אֶ֔לֶף
וְאִ֥ישׁ
יְהוּדָ֖ה
שְׁלֹשִׁ֥ים
אָֽלֶף׃
وايضا مخطوطة اليبو
وصورة المخطوطة
وصورة العدد