هل العدد الذي يقول ملاك حضرته خلصهم محرف ؟ اشعياء 63: 9

 

Holy_bible_1

 

الشبهة 

 

 

الرد

 

الحقيقه التعليق الهامشي في الترجمة العربية مع كل احترام للذين كتبوا الهامش هو غير دقيق وساقدم ادلة علي ذلك 

ولكن كالعادة المشكك ينقلا شيئ بدون فهم فيزيد الاخطاء بسبب سوء فهمه فالخلاف هو بين ملاك وجهه او ملاك حضرته كمعني في الترجمه لكن اصلهم العبري واحد ولا خلاف عليه ( مع ملاحظة ان السبعينية كتبت تفسير للعدد طويل الي حد ما فقالت لم يرسل رجل ولا ملاك ولكن الرب بنفسه خلصهم )  

وندرس الترجمات المختلفة 

 

الفانديك

9 فِي كُلِّ ضِيقِهِمْ تَضَايَقَ وَمَلاَكُ حَضْرَتِهِ خَلَّصَهُمْ. بِمَحَبَّتِهِ وَرَأْفَتِهِ هُوَ فَكَّهُمْ وَرَفَعَهُمْ وَحَمَلَهُمْ كُلَّ الأَيَّامِ الْقَدِيمَةِ.

 

الحياة 

9 فتضايق في كل ضيقاتهم، وملاك حضرته أنقذهم، وبفضل محبته وحنانه افتداهم ورفعهم وحملهم طوال الأيام الغابرة.

والتي كتبت وجهه

 المشتركة 

9 في جميع ضيقاتهم استمع لهم وملاكه أمام وجهه خلصهم. بمحبته وحنانه افتداهم ورفعهم وحملهم طوال الأيام.

 

اليسوعية

9 في جميع مضايقهم تضايق وملاك وجهه خلصهم بمحبته وشفقته آفتداهم ورفعهم وحملهم كل الأيام القديمة.

 

الكاثوليكية 

اش-63-9: في جَميعِ مَضايِقِهم تَضايَقَ ومَلاكُ وَجهِه خَلَّصهم بِمَحَبَّتِه وشَفَقَتِه آفتَداهم ورَفعَهم وحَمَلَهم كُلَّ الأَيَّامِ القَديمة.

ولكن كما ذكرت الاثنين اصلهم العبري واحد ولكن لاتوجد ترجمه عربي كتبت ما ذكرته السبعينية وهي لم يرسل رجل ولا ملاك بل بنفسه خلصهم .

 

التراجم الانجليزي

Isaiah 63:9

 

(ACV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the [heavenly] agent of his presence saved them. In his love and in his pity he redeemed them. And he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(AKJ)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old.

 

(ASV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(VW)  In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(Bishops)  In their troubles, he was also troubled with them, and the angell that went foorth from his presence deliuered them: of very loue and kindnesse that he had vnto them, he redeemed them, he hath borne them and caried them vp euer since the worlde began. 

 

(Darby)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(DRB)  In all their affliction he was not troubled, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love, and in his mercy he redeemed them, and he carried them and lifted them up all the days of old. 

 

(ESV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted,[3] 

 and the angel of his presence saved them;

 in his love and in his pity he redeemed them;

 he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.

 

(Geneva)  In all their troubles he was troubled, and the Angel of his presence saued them: in his loue and in his mercie he redeemed them, and he bare them and caried them alwayes continually. 

 

(GLB)  Wer sie ängstete, der ängstete ihn auch; und der Engel seines Angesichts half ihnen. Er erlöste sie, darum daß er sie liebte und ihrer schonte. Er nahm sie auf und trug sie allezeit von alters her. 

 

(HCSB-r)  In all their suffering, He suffered, 

and the Angel of His Presence saved them.

He redeemed them

because of His love and compassion; 

He lifted them up and carried them

all the days of the past. 

 

 (HNV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(csb)  In all their suffering, He suffered, 

and the Angel of His Presence saved them.

He redeemed them

because of His love and compassion; 

He lifted them up and carried them

all the days of the past.  

 

(IAV) In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

 

(ISRAV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(JST)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(JOSMTH)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(KJ2000)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old.

 

(KJV+TVM)  In all their afflictionH6869 he was afflictedH6862, and the angelH4397 of his presenceH6440 savedH3467 [H8689] them: in his loveH160 and in his pityH2551 he redeemedH1350 [H8804] them; and he bareH5190 [H8762] them, and carriedH5375 [H8762] them all the daysH3117 of oldH5769.

 

(KJV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(KJV+)  In allH3605 their afflictionH6869 he was afflicted,H6862 and the angelH4397 of his presenceH6440 savedH3467 them: in his loveH160 and in his pityH2551 heH1931 redeemedH1350 them; and he bareH5190 them, and carriedH5375 them allH3605 the daysH3117 of old.H5769 

 

(KJV-1611)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his presence saued them: in his loue and in his pitie hee redeemed them, and he bare them, and caried them all the dayes of olde. 

 

(KJV21)  In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them, and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(KJVA)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(LBP)  In all their troubles he did not afflict them, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he saved them and he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(MKJV)  In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(nas) In all their affliction He [830] (2619) was afflicted, And the angel (2620) of His presence saved them; In His love (2621) and in His mercy He redeemed (2622) them, And He lifted (2623) them and carried them all the days of old.

 

(NAS+)  In all3605  their affliction He was afflicted , And the angel4397  of His presence6440  saved3467  them; In His love160  and in His mercy2551  He redeemed1350  them, And He lifted5190  them and carried5375  them all3605  the days3117  of old5769 . 

 

(NET.)  Through all that they suffered, he suffered too. The messenger sent from his very presence delivered them. In his love and mercy he protected them; he lifted them up and carried them throughout ancient times. 

 

(NET)  Through all that they suffered, he suffered too.19 The messenger sent from his very presence20 delivered them. In his love and mercy he protected21 them; he lifted them up and carried them throughout ancient times.22 

 

(NIVUK)  In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. 

 

 (nsn+) In all3605 their affliction He was afflicted , And the angel4397 of His presence6440 saved3467 them; In His love160 and in His mercy2551 He redeemed1350 them, And He lifted5190 them and carried5375 them all3605 the days3117 of old5769 .

 

(RNKJV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(RV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(TMB)  In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them, and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(TRC) In their troubles he forsook them not, but the angel that went forth from his presence delivered them: Of very love and kindness that he had unto them, redeemed he them: He hath born them, and carried them up even, since the world began.

 

(UPDV)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(Webster)  In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

 

(YLT)  In all their distress He is no adversary, And the messenger of His presence saved them, In His love and in His pity He redeemed them, And He doth lift them up, And beareth them all the days of old. 

 

بعض التراجم اللفظية كتبت وجهه

 

(LITV)  In all their affliction, He was not a foe; and the Angel of his Face saved them. In His love and in His pity He redeemed them. And He bore them up, and lifted them up all the days of old. 

 

(Wycliffe) It was not set in tribulacioun, and the aungel of his face sauyde hem. In his loue and in his foryyuenesse he ayenbouyte hem, and he bar hem, and reiside hem in alle daies of the world.

 

فالتراجم الكثيرة بمختلف مرجعياتهما كتبت ملاك حضرته

 

التراجم التي كتبت لم يرسل شخص ولا ملاك ولكن بنفسه خاصهم متبعه السبعينية 

 

(BBE)  It was no sent one or angel, but he himself who was their saviour: in his love and in his pity he took up their cause, and he took them in his arms, caring for them all through the years. 

 

(CLV) in all their distress He is not a foe, not an agent or a messenger, but His presence saved them. In His love, and by His sparing, He, He redeems them, and He will transport and assist them all the days of the eon."

 

(GNB)  from all their suffering. It was not an angel, but the LORD himself who saved them. In his love and compassion he rescued them. He had always taken care of them in the past, 

 

(NAB-A)  in their every affliction. It was not a messenger or an angel, but he himself who saved them. Because of his love and pity he redeemed them himself, Lifting them and carrying them all the days of old. 

 

بعض التراجم التفسيرية كتبت نص يقرب الي التقليدي 

 

(CEV)  It troubled the LORD to see them in trouble, and his angel saved them. The LORD was truly merciful, so he rescued his people. He took them in his arms and carried them all those years. 

 

(ERV)  The people had many troubles, but he was not against them. He loved them and felt sorry for them, so he saved them. He sent his special angel to save them. He picked them up and carried them, just as he did long ago. 

 

(GW)  In all their troubles he was troubled, and he was the Messenger who saved them. In his love and compassion he reclaimed them. He always held them and carried them in the past. 

 

(NCV)  When they suffered, he suffered also. He sent his own angel to save them. Because of his love and kindness, he saved them. Since long ago he has picked them up and carried them. 

 

(NLV)  He suffered with them in all their troubles, and the angel of the Lord saved them. In His loving He paid the price and made them free. He lifted them up and carried them all the days of long ago. 

 

(NWT)  During all their distress it was distressing to him.  And his own personal messenger saved them.  In his love and in his compassion he himself repurchased them,  and he proceeded to lift them up and carry them all the days of long ago. 

 

التراجم القديمة 

الفلجاتا من القرن الرابع

 

(clVulgate)  In omni tribulatione eorum non est tribulatus, et angelus faciei ejus salvavit eos: in dilectione sua et in indulgentia sua ipse redemit eos, et portavit eos, et elevavit eos cunctis diebus sæculi. 

 

(Vulgate)  in omni tribulatione eorum non est tribulatus et angelus faciei eius salvavit eos in dilectione sua et in indulgentia sua ipse redemit eos et portavit eos et levavit eos cunctis diebus saeculi 

 

In all their affliction he was not troubled, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love, and in his mercy he redeemed them, and he carried them and lifted them up all the days of old.

 

والبشيتا من القرن الرابع ايضا

وترجمتها للدكتور لمزا

 

(Lamsa)  In all their troubles he did not afflict them, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he saved them and he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. 

 

واقدم من ذلك السريانية القديمة من القرن الثالث الميلادي

وصورة احدى مخطوطاتها

 

وغيرهم الكثير 

النصوص العبري

وفي البداية الكلمة التي ترجمة حضرته ووجهه 

كلمة بانيم 

H6440

פּנים

pânı̂ym

paw-neem'

Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pânehpaw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively); also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.): -  + accept, a (be-) fore (-time), against, anger, X as (long as), at, + battle, + because (of), + beseech, countenance, edge, + employ, endure, + enquire, face, favour, fear of, for, forefront (-part), form (-er time, -ward), from, front, heaviness, X him (-self), + honourable, + impudent, + in, it, look [-eth] (-s), X me, + meet, X more than, mouth, of, off, (of) old (time), X on, open, + out of, over against, the partial, person, + please, presence, prospect, was purposed, by reason, of, + regard, right forth, + serve, X shewbread, sight, state, straight, + street, X thee, X them (-selves), through (+ -out), till, time (-s) past, (un-) to (-ward), + upon, upside (+ down), with (-in, + stand), X ye, X you.

تترجم وجه ولها استخدامات كثيره حرفية ورمزية وتعني موضع وحضره موافق و مقابل وغضب وحد وحضره ووجه ........

وايضا قاموس برون 

H6440

פּנה  /  פּנים

pânı̂ym  /  pâneh

BDB Definition:

1) face

1a) face, faces

1b) presence, person

1c) face (of seraphim or cherubim)

1d) face (of animals)

1e) face, surface (of ground)

1f) as adverb of loc/temp

1f1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly, from beforetime, before

1g) with preposition

1g1) in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of, in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of, from before, from before the face of

Part of Speech: noun masculine

A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6437

Same Word by TWOT Number: 1782a

وجه وحضره .......

والكلمة استخدمت في العهد القديم 1977 مره منها 1178 مره بمعني امام و 321 مره بمعني وجه و75 مره بمعني حضره ( لدن ) وغيرها الكثير 

لذلك الترجمات التي كتبت حضره والتي كتبت ايضا وجه الاثنين صحيح

والنسخ العبري لم تختلف علي الكلمه 

ישעה 63:9 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants Only)
................................................................................ 
בכל־צרתם [כ לא] [ק לו] צר ומלאך פניו הושיעם באהבתו ובחמלתו הוא גאלם וינטלם וינשאם כל־ימי עולם׃
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ישעה 63:9 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
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בְּֽכָל־צָרָתָ֣ם ׀ [לֹא כ] (לֹ֣ו ק) צָ֗ר וּמַלְאַ֤ךְ פָּנָיו֙ הֹֽושִׁיעָ֔ם בְּאַהֲבָתֹ֥ו וּבְחֶמְלָתֹ֖ו ה֣וּא גְאָלָ֑ם וַֽיְנַטְּלֵ֥ם וַֽיְנַשְּׂאֵ֖ם כָּל־יְמֵ֥י עֹולָֽם׃
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ישעה 63:9 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
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בכל־צרתם ׀ [לא כ] (לו ק) צר ומלאך פניו הושיעם באהבתו ובחמלתו הוא גאלם וינטלם וינשאם כל־ימי עולם׃
................................................................................ 
ישעה 63:9 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants & Vowels)
................................................................................ 
בְּכָל־צָרָתָם ׀ [לֹא כ] (לֹו ק) צָר וּמַלְאַךְ פָּנָיו הֹושִׁיעָם בְּאַהֲבָתֹו וּבְחֶמְלָתֹו הוּא גְאָלָם וַיְנַטְּלֵם וַיְנַשְּׂאֵם כָּל־יְמֵי עֹולָם׃
................................................................................ 
ישעה 63:9 Hebrew OT: Aleppo Codex
................................................................................ 
ט בכל צרתם לא (לו) צר ומלאך פניו הושיעם--באהבתו ובחמלתו הוא גאלם וינטלם וינשאם כל ימי עולם
................................................................................ 
ישעה 63:9 Hebrew Bible
................................................................................ 
בכל צרתם לא צר ומלאך פניו הושיעם באהבתו ובחמלתו הוא גאלם וינטלם וינשאם כל ימי עולם׃

 

 (BHS)  בְּכָל־צָרָתָם [כ לֹא] [ק לֹוצָר וּמַלְאַךְ פָּנָיו הֹושִׁיעָם בְּאַהֲבָתֹו וּבְחֶמְלָתֹו הוּא גְאָלָם וַיְנַטְּלֵם וַיְנַשְּׂאֵם כָּל־יְמֵי עֹולָם׃ 

 

(BHS+) בְּכָל־צָרָתָם לֹא צָר6862  וְּמַלְאַךְ4397  פָּנָיו6440  הֹוִיעָם  בְּאַהֲבָתֹו160  וְּבְחֶמְלָתֹו הְא גְאָלָם וַיְנְַלֵם5190    וַיְנְַאֵם כָּל־יְמֵי עֹולָם5769  

 

(IHOT+)  בכלH3605 In all  צרתםH6869 their affliction  לאH3808  צרH6862 he was afflicted,  ומלאךH4397 and the angel  פניוH6440 of his presence  הושׁיעםH3467 saved  באהבתוH160 them: in his love  ובחמלתוH2551 and in his pity  הואH1931 he  גאלםH1350 redeemed  וינטלםH5190 them; and he bore  וינשׂאםH5375 them, and carried  כלH3605 them all  ימיH3117 the days  עולם׃H5769 of old.

 

(HOT)  בכל־צרתם לא צר ומלאך פניו הושׁיעם באהבתו ובחמלתו הוא גאלם וינטלם וינשׂאם כל־ימי עולם׃ 

 

(HOT+)  בכלH3605  צרתםH6869  לאH3808  צרH6862  ומלאךH4397  פניוH6440  הושׁיעםH3467  באהבתוH160  ובחמלתוH2551  הואH1931  גאלםH1350  וינטלםH5190  וינשׂאםH5375  כלH3605  ימיH3117  עולם׃H5769  

 

(WLC)  בְּֽכָל־צָרָתָ֣ם׀ לֹא לֹ֣ו צָ֗ר וּמַלְאַ֤ךְ פָּנָיו֙ הֹֽושִׁיעָ֔ם בְּאַהֲבָתֹ֥ו וּבְחֶמְלָתֹ֖ו ה֣וּא גְאָלָ֑ם וַֽיְנַטְּלֵ֥ם וַֽיְנַשְּׂאֵ֖ם כָּל־יְמֵ֥י עֹולָֽם׃ 

 

(JPS)  In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. 

فكل النصوص العبري علي مدار الزمان بمخطوطاتها المختلفة كتبت ملاك حضرته 

ومخطوطة لننجراد واليبو كتبوا ذلك 

وصورة اليبو ( والعدد يقع بين صفحتين) 

ونري جملة وملاك حضرته واضحه 

 

وايضا مخطوطات قمران من قبل الميلاد 

وصورة مخطوطة اشعياء 

C:\Users\Holy\Desktop\qum51.jpg

 

(9.) In all their sorrow he had sorrow, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he 
 redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them from ancient days

 

ומלאך פניו הושׁיעם

فاعتقد الادلة علي اصالة العدد واضحة تماما ولا خلاف عليه 

 

الوحيده التي كتبت تفسير للعدد لتوضيح ملاك الرب انه المقصود هو به الرب نفسه هي السبعينية فقالت 

 

(LXX)  κ πσης θλψεωςο πρσβυς οδ γγελοςλλ᾿ ατς κριος σωσεν ατος δι τ γαπν ατος κα φεδεσθαι ατν· ατς λυτρσατο ατος κα νλαβεν ατος κα ψωσεν ατος πσας τς μρας το αἰῶνος. 

 

(Brenton)  out of all their affliction: not an ambassador, nor a messenger, but himself saved them, because he loved them and spared them: he himself redeemed them, and took them up, and lifted them up all the days of old. 

 

(ABP-G+)  εκG1537 πασηςG3956 θλιψεως αυτωνG2347 G1473 ουG3756 πρεσβυςG4244.1 ουδεG3761 αγγελοςG32 αλλ΄G235 αυτοςG1473 οG3588 κυριοςG2962 εσωσενG4982 αυτουςG1473 διαG1223 τοG3588 αγαπανG25 αυτουςG1473 καιG2532 φειδεσθαιG5339 αυτωνG1473 αυτοςG1473 ελυτρωσατοG3084 αυτουςG1473 καιG2532 ανελαβεν αυτουςG353 G1473 καιG2532 υψωσεν αυτουςG5312 G1473 πασαςG3956 ταςG3588 ημεραςG2250 τουG3588 αιωνοςG165 

 

(ABP+)  from out ofG1537 allG3956 their affliction.G2347 G1473 NotG3756 an ambassador,G4244.1 norG3761 an angel,G32 butG235 he,G1473 theG3588 lord G2962 deliveredG4982 them,G1473 because ofG1223 G3588 lovingG25 them.G1473 AndG2532 he sparedG5339 them --G1473 heG1473 ransomedG3084 them,G1473 andG2532 he took them,G353 G1473 andG2532 raised themG5312 G1473 allG3956 theG3588 daysG2250 of theG3588 eon.G165 

 

اما النصوص العبري قديمة وحديثة فلا يوجد بها خلاف ويؤكدوا النص التقليدي

فاعتقد بهذا تاكدنا ان الشبهة اصلا خطأ وان النص التقليدي هو صحيح وبدون اي شك 

والسبعينية هي فقط وضعت جزء صغير تفسيري لكي توضح المعني اكثر ومعروف ان الترجمه السبعينية بها اجزاء كثيرة تفسيرية لان اليهود كانوا يترجمون كتابهم للامم فيفسرون الاشياء التي قد لا يفهمها الاممين  

وبهذا يبدا يتضح انه الاختلاف فقط  بسبب الترجمه السبعينية التي كالعاده في محاولة الشرح ( لانها ترجمة متحررة ) وضعت الرقم كمفهوم وليس كلفظ 

التراجم ثلاث انواع ( لها تقسيم اوسع من ذلك ولكن هذا تقسيم عام )  

لفظية اي تلتزم باللفظ دون المعني ويكون النتيجه المعني غير واضح بعض الاحيان 

متحررة اي الاتزام بالشرح بدون اللفظ ولهذا احيانا يقول الغير مختصينه انه اختلاف او تحريف بسبب عدم فهم طبيعة التراجم 

النوع الثالث التراجم الديناميكية التي تشرح المعني مع الالتزام ايضا باللفظ 

والترجمه السبعينية تحتوي علي الثلاث انواع لاشتراك سبعين مترجم بها في وقت قصير ( اثنين وسبعين يوم فقط ) ولكن يغلب عليها الاسلوب التحرري 

فباسلوب تفسيري الترجمه السبعينية ارادت ان توضح ان ملاك حضرته هو الرب نفسه هو الذي يخلص فبالفعل وفي هذا الامر تاكيد ان المخلص في الفكر اليهودي هو الرب يهوه نفسه 

 

والمجد لله دائما